DASA 2019-2 agaiast anti- pollution measures. tinguish those two. I think it's very important to dis- AYRES: Asa matter of fact, there's a nice illustration, People understand this point so poorly that one of the petroleum companies ~I'm not sure which one— published an ad in a national magazine say- ing, in effect, ‘You can stop pollution. Stop driving!'' [Laughter] HEMLER: There's another point that should be brought up here with respect to the new types of hopelessness that you are talking about, I think a good example that brings this out occurred in 1961, during the Berlin crisis, when at the national level it was brought out that a nuclear war waa very possible. The Administration, the Department of Defense, Civil Defense, all brought this point out very quickly and very abruptly in, I believe, September 1961, People all over the country then began to have meetings and to build fallout shelters; construction companies and builders became involved. There was a mass movement toward the fallout shelter which points out that there was not the hopelessness of total destruction involved. At least it points that out in my mind. You will also recall, however, that the movement was random in all directions, a multi-directional movement, because after having made the statement that nuclear war was possible, no instructions were immediately given as to how people should prepare; consequently, people began to prepare in their own different ways. There were people I know in my area that began to prepare their own personal family fallout shelters and there were a number of them built, There were some cities that began to build public-type shelters. [I remember i was living in El Paso at the time. Do you remember a nationally publicized case which concerned the small city of Artesia, New Mexico, a city of about 25,000 people, which had plans-for building a public school? They built as part of that school an underground public shelter for the school children and the people in the small town, although Artesia was far from being an important area. This mood continued for four or five months, but again no definitive instructions were coming from Washington or from the people that the public thought should provide them with the information on what should go into fallout shelters, what the fallout shelters should do or would not do. In fact, if you look at the record I think you will find that Civil Defense was caught badly off-guard by the statement made. They frantically tried to prepare instructions and tried to prepare the yellow pamphlet that you were talking about, but that came out afterwards. So there was Yomcy 292