SESSION JI , 91 EISENRUD: Yes. Let me tell you something else. I thought we had access to all the information we needed at the time. [think we did, if we had asked the right questions, but sometimes you didn't seem to ask the right question, it wasn't until a few days before this shot was scheduled to go off that I actually knewthat it was poing to be at Bikini and not at Eniwetok. Nobody told me they were guing to move to Bikini; most of my planning had been done on the assumption that it was poing to be at Eniwetok and nobody told me otherwise, DUNHAM: Yet the tower was being built all the time. EISENBUD: Yes, but we were preparing in New York, and actually it could have been disastrous if it weren't for the fact that through a stroke of luck we had instruments at Rongerik Island. But, based upon our own meteorological projections we assumed it was going to be fired from Eniwetok, and you may say that's a dumb thing to do, but it never occurred to me as to where it was going to be fired. FREMONTI-SMITH: There's an old religious phrase of "Need to know, " out of the Bible, and I'll give you an illustration: Norbert Wiener, who, as you know, invented cybernetics and who was also working ina highly classified bomb situation during the war, told me personally that during this highly classified work he ran into a discovery which he knew to be of great importance to ancther highly classified group. He spent two years trying to find a way in which he could tell them what he had discovered and he was never able to do it because he couldn't demonstrate the fact that they needed to know. In other words, he was never able to tell them. 1 also have a hunch—and I don't expect to have it confirmed locally that the Manhattan Project would never have been accomplished if all security had been protected, [ suspect that a number of people told cach other things and then discovered they had a need to know afterwards, and that's the way the thing got off the ground in several instances, But anyway, I really bring this up to point out the devastating effect— Norbert Wiener is only one example, Lhave several others—oi this principle. I would like to add one thing. I really do believe that, by and large, and undoubtedly there are exceptions, our own scientific ad- vances and our own security have been set back by ou security more than if we had been much more open. I think we have blocked our own advance by failure to make available to ecientists a lot of information