204 DASA 2019-2 counted are found all over, of course, but he was primarily concerned with their frequency as a function of distance from ground zero. I would suppose that a similar study could be made at Bikini but I won- der whether enough is knuwn about the gradient in dose to permit one to make a fairly strong statement, either affirmatively or negatively, in the presence or absence of a cline of aberrant forms. CONARD: You would have quite a gradient on Rongelap, 2,306 rads on the north island as compared to 265 on the southern islands. That's quite a gradient, UPTON: But in point of fact no measurements of this kind have been made to date? CONARD: So far as I know, they haven't. EISENBUD: These are not high doses compared to what can be obtained in these areas of natural radioactivity, For example, in Brazil the ambient levels from external radiation are about 3 mr per hour downwards to normal levels, and this is about 12 r per year. So, in 100 years you have 1,200 rads, Presumably some of those forms have been there much longer. And then if you superimpose on that the dose from the internal, which is, incidentally, very hard to calculate because they are alpha-betas and the location and rela.tion to the genetic material hasn't been worked out yet, the internal dose is presumably much higher, sc that I think that there are prob- ably situations in nature where this kind of a situation could te obtained if one wanted to. TAYLOR: It just occurred to me that there's a mass of data sitting there at Rongelap waiting to be gathvred and looked at. FREMONT-SMITH: TAYLOR: No, We'll have to plant surne cosmos in there. Just observe what's there, as long as the dose levels are reasonably well known, but I'm not sure from the conversa- tion whether or not they are really well known, Do people agree that the dose levels at Rongelap have been known within a facter of, say, one-and-a-half, in the total dose? CONARD: I would think so; judging from the dose calculations and the hematological responses of the people, we're rot too far off,